(no subject)

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

So, a discussion topic for you guys:

I lent my copies of the first four books to my best friend recently, hoping to have someone irl to squee over them with. Turns out, she didn't like them, and when I asked her why, she said that she "Didn't like the message that children can and/or should play God."

Which was baffling to me, because not only is that something I've never ever thought of, when I did think about it... it seems to me to be the opposite of what she's doing.

I don't know if this is just because she's religious (Christian, specifically) and I'm not, but I do know I've never seen that idea suggested by anyone in fandom.

Input, guys? What do you think? Do the stories encourage children to "play God?" Discourage it? Not take a stance at all?

*pokes fandom, hopes for revival*

Comments

[conuly]

As the kids are clearly under orders from higher powers (or Powers, even) to defy evil and make the world a better place, I don't see how they *could* be playing God. Playing saint, maybe.

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

That's the part that boggled me - I mean, it seems to me that Diane Duane's always been very careful to keep the Powers largely nondenominational - but essentially, wizards are agents of God. If they ever do "play God," it's under His orders. (Or at least, that's how I always saw it.)

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

'Playing saint' is a really good way of phrasing it, I think. The books are really clear on the fact that while wizards have access to power that the greater population doesn't, it's always because of greater powers.

In 'Wizard's Dilemma', doesn't Nita's mom directly draw the connection between God and the One? And I think it happens a few more times throughout the series. Maybe it's just because I am Christian (Catholic, specifically), but the books seem really religion-friendly to me! I'm not really used to that from my fantasy series!

There was a point to this comment, but I lost it somewhere. :(

[pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com]

Or, as posicat suggests below, "playing angel."

[silken-shadow.livejournal.com]

I agree with both of you. The children are acting on "the side of the angels" at the behest of the benevolent Higher Powers. I don't find the Powers (good or "evil) to be of any religion at all; they just are.

[posicat.livejournal.com]

I agree with the above, it's always seemed fairly clear to me that the powers were the inspiration that different religions based their ideas of God around. The wizards are fighting the enemy of good, under a fairly strict oath to those powers, aka God(s). I don't know that I'd go so far as to say they're saints, after all a miracle is something that can't be explained, and wizards are quite clear where their power comes from, even if the non-wizards don't know. To put the powers into a specific religion, wizards are messengers, and warriors of God fighting the corruption of the Devil. I would suspect in the Young Wizard universe that quite a few writers of the Bible and other holy books were Wizards or closely related to them.

[starlady38.livejournal.com]

*scratches head*

Only if you think that the purely local, mostly small-scale wizardries that they do are what god does, which basically is a view of god as a stalker busybody.

And all the wizards are very clear that they serve Life, as agents of the One (about whose works they can't even speak of in the Speech, but have to use special paraphrastic tenses): no, I don't think the wizards are playing god.

Theists are so weird.

[deutscheami.livejournal.com]

Let me play Devil's Advocate here for a second: how would you categorize Nita's choice at the end of So You Want To Be a Wizard? While there's a strong hinting that Nita's choice to give the Lone One a choice is part of the One's greater plan, for one, she did make that choice in the first place, and for two, it was hers to make-- and one could probably argue that in doing so, she was very much taking on the role of the divine.

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

My friend's big conflict, really, was with the idea of Nita sacrificing herself in Deep Wizardry - she was saying "Obviously Nita was a symbol for Jesus" - but it seems to me that... well... if that's the argument you're going to use, wouldn't anyone who's sacrificed themselves for the Art be "playing Jesus"? That's in the job description; they all know it going into the game, so to speak. They're serving a higher Power, and in the service of that Power, their individual lives are not necessarily as important as accomplishing the goal that Power has given to you - or at least, that's how I've always interpreted it.

[comrade-cat.livejournal.com]

People and the Divine being part of each other is a theme in some of Duane's other works. I don't recall it being a big part of the Young Wizards series though. Except, as Deutscheami says, when Nita gets to write in a choice for the Lone Power. I think the most other play it gets is listening to the small voice in your heart, & that seems rather innocuous.

The idea of the singer sacrificing herself to alter the effects of death really is very Biblical. (I can't think of an adjective for Jesus - Jesusical?) But I don't see that the fact Nita is sacrificing herself is encouraging children to play God. It seems to me (as a former Christian) that most of Christianity is calling for people to imitate Jesus. I'm sure sacrificing oneself for others counts.

[azurelunatic]

That's the thing that I would have pointed to as well.

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

Same here! There are a ton of rules in place about not misusing their power - I mean, the direct consequence of doing it is that they lose it.

[caiteydid.livejournal.com]

She even goes to lengths to compare the One's Champion to lesser Greek/Roman gods/ angels. And the wizards are definitely /below/ even the One's Champion, so that makes them like... what? I think whoever up there said "Saints" is probably closest. I'm not even sure I'd give them that high a job, except maybe the highest leaders (what would they be? The name escapes me.)

[tsukara.livejournal.com]

Well, I'd say saints except (I have to go back and look at it, but, iirc) in A Wizard Alone, when talking about Abdals, it has a metaphor of them being like saints, i.e. more direct conduits of the One's power into the world for good.

As for 'playing' God? Death isn't really playing and, though she didn't end up dying at the end, someone did for her. I mean, if anything it's Ed who dies for another's payment.

And, you know, gee, maybe I've just been reading John 15:13 wrong all these years. *sigh*

Also: hey you! :D

It'd be interesting to talk with this girl herself, I think...

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

lol hi I know you

Hey yeaahhhh you're right about that. One of them even uses the word "saint" in relation to Abdals... I think it's either Nita or Kit talking to TomnCarl and their reaction is "hurr hurr kind of!" basically? IIRC. MAYBE.

Yeah, not having a detailed education in Christian dogma I don't know what the word would be in those terms to describe wizards, but I've definitely always seen them as tools of the One, working on Its behalf on the Earth because the One can't be there Itself.

What's John 15:13 say?

Contreversial, probably?

[shadowsinfire.livejournal.com]

Well, what is playing god? And which god?

I am not very religious at all (to quote my aunt, I believe there may be something out there but no-one's found it's hotline yet) but there are some pretty damn unsavoury things in the bible at least (for one example, take god's treatment of Lot in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah; saving him, the 'just and righteous' man, after he offered a mob free reign with his virgin daughters), and nothing in YW has given me the 'fuck NO' response some of those things have. I don't have much experience with any other religions/religious texts (well, a couple of ancient ones) but all of them seem to have gods and goddesses and godlings and angels and powerful beings playing, and doing things that I would call stupid, nasty, cruel, bigoted or unjust.

I see no particular reason why children shouldn't 'play god' if playing god means forgiving people, and giving them second chances, helping them change if that's what they need, helping them in general and making the world a better place. Which is what they do in YW. No reason why adults shouldn't either, for that matter.

But that's my opinion. And I can't really understand what your friend means unless she defines what playing god means to her..

That was supposed to be 'controversial'

[shadowsinfire.livejournal.com]

I dunno if that helps or not.

[dameruth.livejournal.com]

From the point of view of a lifelong agnostic with pagan leanings, I agree with the bulk of the other responses here. I totally don't get the "playing God" notion; the Powers are definitely shown to be the ones in charge.

One of Duane's recurring themes is that mortal beings can (and, by implication, should) follow the examples of the Powers (to help, heal, forgive, create, and even sacrifice oneself) because we're *reflections* of those greater archetypes, made in their images. Our intelligence and free will allow us to consciously reenact the Powers' stories, for the greater good of everyone. But the point is, we're *following* those greater Powers, not trying to usurp them.

Of course, since Christianity isn't my faith, maybe I'm missing something . . . but based on what other folks have said, maybe not. :D

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

That's always been my take on it - that by emulating the Powers, we only make Them stronger while also making the Earth a better place.

One of the implications in the story has always been, to me, that the Powers can't interact with us on our level, and that's why there are wizards - because they can, and someone needs to be down here watching our backs.

[blackjackrocket.livejournal.com]

I think part of it may depend on how one defines "god".

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

...As in, the biblical Christian God? Within traditional Christian religious structures there's not all that much variation.

[adiva_calandia]

I think everyone else has said what I feel better than I could say it.

I'll put in, for the record, that as a Catholic I've been very aware of the spiritual overtones of the books for the last, I dunno, six years -- since I got old enough and smart enough to recognize them -- and they've always meshed well with the way I relate to Christianity. This is anecdotal evidence and this isn't about me, of course, but. For what it's worth.

If you can get your friend to read the fifth book, maybe that will help. As people have mentioned, that's the one where it becomes very obvious that no, you can't fix everything, and trying to play God leads you down dangerous paths. It's also a book with a lot more Christian rhetoric in it, from Nita visiting a church to her mother quoting the Bible in the final showdown. ("And a light shone in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.") That might help your friend re-evaluate the messages of the other books.

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

That's what I'm thinking I'm going to try to do - though she'll have to read A Wizard Abroad first, because apparently she didn't actually read that one.

[speria.livejournal.com]

"Playing God"? I think more as playing for God rather than being Gods themselves. I see them following the Powers' orders and their example, but they aren't the ones in charge.

I was raised Catholic, but I find that the Powers and the One in a way harmonize with Christianity, although I feel that most of our religions somewhat compliment each other to begin with...so that might influence my opinion. (I could explain how it works in my head but I might end up confusing myself on how to say it in the process.)

Try to get her to read the fifth book, it might help her change her mind.
(I know that most of this was stated above, but I just wanted to say what I thought.)

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

Same here! That's how I've always seen it.

[whipmaster949.livejournal.com]

That's really funny actually. Children CAN'T play God, so your friend is really reaching. If I read a book about children flying I'm not going to complain that it teaches kids bad habits. Because kid's can't fly. I'd like to think most are smart enough to figure this out on their own. Mountains outta molehills.

[talon.livejournal.com]

Always reminds me of that quote from Peach in High Wizardry:

Those refuse the Powers, become the tools of the Powers.
Those who serve the Powers, themselves become the Powers.

---

Perhaps, loosely, playing God indeed.

[niysen.livejournal.com]

That never occurred to me.

Then again, I'm Jewish and so nonreligious that I would probably make my rabbi cry if he knew.

That said, when I read the books as a kid, I just thought that the Powers inspired the world's assorted gods/angels/mythological people and had limited power affecting events in the real world. In my mind, wizards just acted like maids and helped keep everything tidy when the Powers couldn't do so.

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

Hey, that's a good analogy. Thanks!

[possibilitarian.livejournal.com]

/late comment is late

I'm a Christian, and I've always thought that Young Wizards has done a great job at avoiding doing that. I've always seen the message as more 'we should try to help people, and do what we can to stop bad things from happening' than 'we should play God'.
Also, they're working under the Powers That Be and the One in what they're doing, it's not just them deciding what they want to do, but what's right.
Additionally, one thing I absolutely adore about Young Wizards is in the way wizardry is set up, it reminds me of my faith, which isn't something I see very often in books that aren't specifically written like that :D

I. really hope that made sense

[nakotaco.livejournal.com]

That makes perfect sense :) That's pretty much how I've always seen it.

Everyone has Divine Potential

[(Anonymous)]

In my opinion, rather than playing gods, they're playing responsible human beings. I'm Christian, and I think everyone should be doing all they can to improve the world. In fact, I believe most religions encourage their followers to improve the world- or at least themselves, which are parts of the world anyways. That they have the power to either improve the world or make it worse is no different from anyone. We all have freedom of choice, and we can all use it for good and evil. That's one thing I like so much about the YW series: It mirrors real life. All the best books do.